The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side". (2024)

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Marielle#94322728/05/24 11:53 AM

At the end of Act2 and beginning of Act 3, when finding out about the Crown, Gale is interested in it as a problem solving tool. In the romanced version, after finding the Annals of Karsus, he takes the PC aside (the boat ride) and talks about how he could take the Crown to put the power of the gods into mortal hands for the betterment of the world. You then have a discussion about what to do. In it your PC can roughly hold four positions: that power corrupts; that Gale is wonderful as he is and does not need the Crown; then you can allow him to sweep you of your feet with his plan; and finally you can edge him on. Afterwards you are invited to the audience with Mystra, where he will again search your council in how to proceed. If your choice here drastically conflicts with your previous conversation, he will remark on it and behave like you originally discussed. I really love how his quest is constructed because it feels like you are doing something with the character.

The boat ride has no ability checks, it is pure conversation so it matters what you say, and each version of the conversation has a lovely flow and once you picked a mood - so to speak - you can stick with it, if you like. That is to say, if you edged him on, you still have the option to regret you decision later, but also have ample dialogue to simply stay on board with the plan. On the other hand, if you persuaded him away from the Crown, he will understand questions about taking the Crown as checking in on whether he still feels good about the decision the two of you made. I haven't explored the dialogue when you take the third option yet, when he is undecided til the last.

I overall think they did a very good job with this quest and I wish Astarion's had a little of its reactivity. There are quite a few points indicating that the ritual is as much a crutch to Astarion as the Crown is to Gale. But, along with the conversations you can have about the other spawn, all your conversations about these topics amount to nothing during the final moments before the ritual. They are just fluff without relevance and I think that is a lost opportunity.

Edit: I just wanted to add, that while I love Astarion, I also occasionally want to strangle him or at least thunderwave him of a cliff into a camp of gnolls along with Shart and Wyll. But alas, evocation wizardry prevents such measures, so I have to pet him with one hand, while using the spray-bottle with the other.

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Marielle#94322928/05/24 01:28 PM

And I will respectfully remind you, that nowhere did I say, I don't like Astarion, just that he is an insufferable brat in act 1 , which even a lot of hardcore Astarion fans agree upon.
I btw did his romance - as resisting Durge with spawn Astarion and that was a very fitting romance scenario. I started that romance, because I read, that there is a lot more content to his romance with resisting Durge and tbh,yes, it was really great, there were some really deep dialogue options. He is btw much nicer in act 1 if you are Durge and struggling, because he recognises the similarities between you two.

And in the Gandrel encounter I tease Astarion ( It's not, like a spawn is a full vampire), which gives a fun dialogue option.

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Marielle#94324028/05/24 06:14 PM

the gur are always fairly polite when I deal with them they talk about Astarion being changed and though he lived a life of violence and sin he can yet be redeemed, if he remains a spawn but sacrificed the children he says he did them a kindness so the gur didnt have to deal with it and Ulma says she would prefer the choice however she agrees to no longer hunt Astarion and will be there in the final battle.

I do however fight Gandrel every time though so he never makes it to act 3 .
( I like Astarion either way AA/UA )

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Marielle#94324328/05/24 09:17 PM

Yes, Astarion seems so inconsistent that one can only logically explain such behavior by the presence of mental illness. And Tav has some kind of illness too, definitely. Yes, in other places they make sometimes sour faces too, but that can be explained by some sort of facial muscle control issues. Tav also “forgets”, doesn't try to discuss with Astarion his “bouts of sudden kissing sickness”, behaves normally in the rest of the plot and... asks for a kiss again. It turns out that the characters themselves don't suffer from this, they don't remember anything, and live in some special reality of their own, in which, perhaps, they are fine. Only the player who has to watch this psychiatry suffers, especially if they try to associate themselves with their Tav.

It feels like there's really an element of player perception here (perhaps a product of the thinking of the fandom in which the writer revolved), and even a peculiar example of “player inventing”. That is, not only is the game character prescribed, but also a player who fits the story. Oh, and this fictional sexualizer is supposedly not going to like it either. Well, from the looks of it, it should. The part of the fandom that treated Astarion with love and warmth suffered because of their love. They didn't understand the idea, didn't want to neutralize him and keep the world safe from him. You don't care about “the world's suffering” from the presence of a proud Ascended Vampire - suffer yourself. Maybe some part of the fanfiction audience likes the idea of suffering. And the “good way” at the same time began to seem like the only true solution against this background. I remember that when I got over the initial shock and pain after those kisses, my thought was, “Now how can I defend Astarion against all of this, there are no arguments left....” Literally that same day or the next, there was a wave of hate towards AA fans. But even the violence in this novel is so poorly spelled out that a trivial application of logic allows one to understand all these unsophisticated mechanisms for creating an “abusive history”.

Unfortunately, I can't remember exactly how I talked to him about the crown, there were too many other mind-filling events going on. I guess I tried to choose something as neutral as possible, so that he would decide for himself, but I could have started to talk him out of it, I wasn't disappointed in “goodness” back then, I don't remember exactly. I definitely suggested he talk to Mistra, but not tell her about the plans. I'll pay attention to that next time. With SH a similar story in act 3, I thought she wanted to let her parents go on her own, then I was told about the chain of events that need to be activated for her to want to save them on her own. Astarion concretely wants to perform the ritual, regardless of the player's actions. The only thing that depends on the player's actions and their relationship to Astarion, as far as I know, is the difficulty of rolling a persuasion check to dissuade him.

Okay, I take that back, it's not at all necessary to directly genuinely love and understand a character to have a romance with them. I've had “for interest” romances in some games too, including creating male Tavs to better reveal an interesting female character.

In the first act, Astarion begins to communicate with the world for the first time after two hundred years of slavery and torture. He understandably distrusts no one, including the player. The vivid manifestations of his character speak just to the strength of his personality, to the fact that he could not be broken. Much more logical and likely behavior for a person with PTSD in his shoes would be to be very quiet, to keep to themselves, not to draw any unnecessary attention to themselves, certainly not to argue, but to show more of a semblance of approval. Observe and keep a dagger behind his back or always have a plan in case of escape. Astarion is too lively and escpressive for that. That he regularly raises his voice is typical behavior for someone who has not been listened to before and subconsciously believes he is not being heard. The fact that he doesn't care about the people around him - no one has cared about him, and if they once did, he's forgotten, he doesn't know what it's like. He's trying to survive and get anything he can get his hands on.

At first I thought he was a bit “mean”, but it was quite cute, I thought it was because he was an evil companion, but after the bite scene I understood everything perfectly. In BG2, for example, evil companions also did not chew snot, and very well mocked not only the good members of the party, but also the player themselves, if you did good - stupid, in their opinion, actions. There, by the way, the behavior of companions was written more realistic, they could easily kill each other. And not only to leave the party, but also to ambush you at the moment when you will be weakened after the battle, to ambush you, attack and take revenge for something. In BG3, I didn't like the idea of companion slaves because of larvae from the start to be honest, I just turned a blind eye to it. The player is a king and god (and also a “teacher of life”) can do whatever they want, the companion can't leave, or else they will get into trouble, they can't even try to take revenge, they can only argue in vain. I have always liked companions with character, who do not suck up, obey unquestioningly and approve everything, but on the contrary argue and throw some challenges, the more interesting it becomes to earn friendship or love and trust. In particular, I like Lae'zel's behavior in Act 1, when she tries to dominate, bend the player, you prove leadership, and then over time because of your actions, she begins to respect you. And when you tell her the truth, she yells at you, yet approves. And I, as a hardcore fan of Astarion, well, including as a fan of classic RPGs, who has seen more than that (go with Viconia, especially a good hero, you will learn a lot of interesting things about yourself) will never agree that in the first act he is an “insufferable brat”.

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Marielle#94325429/05/24 07:16 AM

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

DarkAngelBeckons#94326129/05/24 09:39 AM

Location: Germany

The game is not there to satisfy your HC. At Larian, writers have written a story for each companion and they decided which was the good ending and which was the bad ending.

and one can generally state that selfish actions are bad if others pay the price for them. Karlach was sold by Gortasch, they took her heart away. that is an evil act. Sending 7000 beings to hell so that one is healed. is an evil act. and this is your reward, for your actions. nobody has a real happy and why should you have it?

Back to Larian. the writers made up a story. AA followed Cazador by doing the ritual. he is no better than him. that is the point.
That's why you can also ask in the dialogues whether he hasn't just become a new Cazador. because Larian wanted that conclusion.

if you don't like it, then you don't like the story. then you have no right to say that they should change it.
take it as it is. redesign the story in your home, in your head

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Marielle#94326229/05/24 09:58 AM

To become better for whom? For a “good playthrough”? And how exactly did you find this epilogue amazing, I'm just curious? Personally, watching the “good” finale shocked me in many ways:

1. The way Astarion is abruptly and painfully deceived and rejected. He doesn't initially expect what happens, he's walked in the sun before and most likely, deep down, desperately hoped things would stay the same. Yes, there is a logical explanation for this - the larva was giving him that opportunity, and now everything is back to the brat's previous state. Not only that - the hunger would haunt him forever. Senses and sensations have dulled - a vampire spawn has dulled senses. For example, he will no longer be able to savor the taste of food, wine (as AA does in his happy epilogue). The undead odor that will now exude from his body has returned. The sun that Astarion loved so much, and which is now killing him, is in many ways also a symbol of how the “ light world” rejects Astarion as something “foreign”. That bright, joyful, sunny and light world in which there is no place for someone like Astarion. I understand that you are on the side of the “ light world” and everyone has their own beliefs, morals, etc., that's fine. But what does that have to do with understanding Astarion himself? Of his personally? It's unlikely that Astarion wants to accept that he must go into darkness.

2. The mocking companion lines are also terrific, but perfectly invested in the overall concept of rejecting the “insufferable brat”.

3. Shocks Tav/DU, who go happily boozing in the tavern with the “friends” who just bullied Astarion, and celebrates their “victory” while Astarion sits somewhere behind crates on the dock, curled up in a lump, slowly healing his wounds. And judging by the last shot of this scene from Astarion Origins, he's crying. Probably quieter than he did then, after abandoning the ritual, when he sobs like a man who has lost everything. Because of that one moment, even excluding the rest, I will never go down this path. I can roleplay evil, but not abomination. To me, those rails are far worse than any “kneeling”, “ degrading” or whatever.

4. Well, and it's not that shocking, no, on the contrary, it rather adds to the logical conclusion of this picture - such a condescending and patronizing attitude of Tav/ DU to Astarion in the dialog in the epilogue after all this.

There's no “growth”, he's just adjusting as he's always been used to doing. He says whatever the “good hero” wants to hear, it's rather formulaic, theatrical and not like Astarion. Even in the romance such a sweet tone in places, it's not real. Although by “personal growth”, many people mean changing a person's behavior in a direction they like. For me, “growth” lies in the liberation from masks, theatricality, in the way Astarion squares his shoulders, holds his head proudly, in the fact that he behaves the way he wants to behave, without adjusting to anyone, without the need to manipulate. Personal growth is the ability to wear the right masks?

Oh, for me, another reason to evil playthrough is not seeing more of Jaheira and Minsc... Jaheira, in my opinion, is quite different from his original in BG1 and 2, and Minsc has such an over-the-top “ass” that it's starting to feel like he has some sort of fixation on it, in BG2 it was somehow more appropriate and dosed and really amusing. But I can totally understand why old fans are for the sake of seeing them. About Halsin, I totally agree. I've never before had a companion being kidnapped by an enemy cause me to cheer, “Yay, he won't be in my camp for the entire third act!” Unfortunately, they really just made him a companion for the sex content. As a contrast to this, the only murder I've committed in this game for which I feel deep shame, guilt, and regret is Minthara. Then I read about her, read what her fans wrote, and realized that the worst thing for me to do in this game was to take the side of “good” in Act 1 without trying to understand the issue. It won't happen again.

That's right, that's the only logical option for Will and Karlach in this situation. They're basically leaving to do what? To take the ceremorphosis? The artifact makes the usual departure of companions from the group seem like some kind of suicidal act.

I don't think, to be honest, that personality can change completely at all. It doesn't happen that way. Some incremental changes, new experiences that affect one's perception of the world, yes, but certainly not completely, all within the nature of the personality. Lae'zel both strived to “follow the way of the samurai”, serving some higher purpose, and still does, it's just that in Orpheus' case the purpose becomes more suited to her, whereas Vlaakith would simply exploit that pursuit of hers. Orpheus' purpose, unlike Vlaakith's, includes the well-being of Lae'zel and the entire Githyanki people. Shadowheart is re-building her identity as she travels, she has lost her memory, so she does not change, but aligns her worldview to one path or another. Only in one case she builds her worldview by accepting the tenets of Selune as a basis, and in the other case she accepts the tenets of Char. Gale has in his character both selfish aspirations, and the desire to comprehend all spheres of magic and become a God, and the desire for a quiet peaceful life, but he will remain Gale in any case, just one of these aspirations will be forced to “move”. Astarion doesn't change - in the case of Ascension he regains himself, gets what he wanted back in his previous life (if we take into account the history of the corrupt judge, which was never revealed), in any case he is freed and revealed. Without the ritual - he remains himself inside, but has learned to adjust to the “good world”. This is the same Astarion from Act 1, it's just that in Act 1 he hasn't fully adapted to life after torture, but now he has been encouraged, set an example, and he knows how to behave. Perhaps he's laying low and waiting for a new chance so he won't miss it again if he's lucky. “Don't change” doesn't mean they stay exactly the same, it means they are still them and not some other people with different feelings in their place, of course new experiences and new connections can't help but affect them, just like with normal people in reality.

I want to point out that I love AA not in the sense that I choose that option because I like that behavior, and the other dislike is that I want a “dark romance” and not some other kind of romance. I love Astarion. Wholeheartedly, as a person, as a human being. And Astarion is already choosing his own Ascension.

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Marielle#94326329/05/24 10:30 AM

I interpret that as curling himself in a ball so his face is better hidden from the sun. I find the spawn ending in Astarion's Origin extremely satisfying, especially with some details that were added with Patch 6. What I dislike about it, is the implication of attacking a bound person in the sewer, and that Wyll and Karlach can't sort their stuff out on their own.

Gale's baseline that stays the same throughout the game and in every ending is, that he desires to help others, especially help other to better themselves and improve their own situation. In regards to the "quiet life" it is also funny that this is again a point in which disagreeing with him is beneficial. He wants to return home to Waterdeep because he is more comfortable there, it is the easier route for him. He is more happy though, if you take him adventuring (or to Baldur's Gate) and thanks you for encouraging him to leave home. Not that he is unhappy in WD but there is a discernible shift in mood and tone between the WD and the not WD endings.

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Marielle#94326429/05/24 10:45 AM

Marielle:

We have fundamentally different opinions and that is ok. I would rather kill Astarion, than let him ascend, as I would rather kill Shadowheart than let her kill the Nightsong.
Both turn into toxic characters imo and spawn Astarion even thanks you for stopping him, knowing, that he would have become Cazador 2.0. You see it differently and that is ok. For me discussions are not about "I'm right and you are wrong" I'm just interested in different viewpoints, a concept,that doesn't seem to be en vogue anymore nowadays.
No one was condescending to him in my game, Wyll made a tasteless joke once, but Astarion was well enough able to diffuse that on his own.
I don't know,what ending you gave seen,since there are several, but my Durge wasn't condescending and she asked,what he wanted to do. He said, he wants to see the world a bit, since he was bound to BG for so long. And it is implied, that they have great adventures together and exploring other ways to help Astarion with his spawn setbacks.
As for what I think is good - that he is free. Even with the spawn restrictions, he is still free to do and decide,what he wants. With the Ascension, he is basically tied to Mephisto, He made a devils deal. So he might be free now and if lucky for a long time, but when he dies, he will be Mephistos bitch. And Mephisto Likes to use souls for his experiments, so I see and fear a new cycle of abuse. That of course is speculation based on my DnF knowledge of Mephisto and devil deals in general. Maybe the 7000 victims buy the afterlife freedom for the one ascending too, I don't know. But neither does Tav/Durge or Astarion.
I personally must say, I find AA scenes pretty shocking. AA personally creeps me out and makes me highly uncomfortable. I wouldn't continue a relationship with AA, since I can't shake that creep feeling. He doesn't do anything shocking, though I would see him making you only a spawn after what he has told you about the restrictions of personal freedom for spawns as highly dangerous - that is my opinion, mind you,- , but it is more the way he talks, his body language.
In the end, we will never know,what would be better for the companions in the long run,since Larian won't make BG4 or a DLC. So at the moment it is one headcanon and opinion against the other.

As for Jaheira - she is awesome in BG3. Don't forget, it's a 100 years older and wiser Jaheira and I do think, they managed to catch her personality well.
And I honestly like Larian Mins more than BioWare Minsc. He was never a favourite of mine,but I can tolerate him way more here, than in the other games.

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Marielle#94326829/05/24 12:10 PM

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Oona#94326929/05/24 12:16 PM

What, may I ask, do you care? Respectfully, we can ask for whatever we want. That’s why there’s a Suggestions board. Plenty of people have already made the very thorough argument about how even if this is the “bad” ending, Tav’s face in those kisses make no sense. If I do a selfish thing, the consequences should make sense. Don’t just slap a scared face on my character.

Larian doesn’t need you defending their story or intentions. We can ask for whatever we’d like. If they don’t want to implement the changes, then they don’t have to.

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Marielle#94327129/05/24 12:22 PM

A game is meant to be playable and passable. Games are made for the players, not to satisfy the writing ambitions of the authors. It is the players who pay the money for the game. I realize that: “Players who go to write fanfiction are just as interested in hurt as they are in joy” (quote from the lecture mentioned above), but selfish actions are bad if others are paying for them. Other players don't necessarily have to pay with their money (the game is now unplayable, so it's cheating), time, and feelings for the pleasure of people with special tastes and fanfiction fans who like to “explore pain”. And certainly players should not be given traumatizing trigger scenes 6 months after the game's release without warning as a “Valentine's Day gift”!

Authors can decide whatever they want, what ending they consider good or bad, the game should be passable either way. In BG2, there were plenty of options for evil play through with showing bad consequences, but it was all logical, plot-driven, didn't traumatize anyone, and even (!) had very rich roleplay in every situation. No rail scenes, wow, turns out that's how you can show “evil” too. It's been possible to show it that way for a long time, have they lost it?

Really? We can only ask that (or should we only ask that?) because Larian really wanted that conclusion, and there's no other way? I think your comment sounds very offensive to Larian's authors. If the proper effect can be achieved (but, alas, not achieved if the player has at least the experience of playing classic RPGs with the presence of roleplay and different choices) only by rails, then... It's a shame that so much effort and money was put into the game in such a case, it has such amazing acting, combat system, music, environments and more. Oh and the script is good elsewhere too, some great plot moves occur. What was the purpose of Larian's puncture at this point? For “a new word in video game romance”? “Showing abuse” is so valuable that it's worth ruining plot, logic, removing the possibility of roleplaying from RPGs, introducing traumatizing content for the sake of it? Is it worth ruining a AAA class game for that?

That's for fanfic readers. If you don't like it, don't read it. It's good for low-budget pixel art games for their audience too. For AAA and AA games, it's called consumer fraud. We don't have the right to say? Come on, when did they put such a law in place? Maybe in some particular dictatorial country it works. But in the international gaming community, no, I haven't heard of it, sorry. In such a reality, would I have to buy a car whose brake pad fails after 6 months and the manufacturer refuses to replace it, claiming it's its “bad ending” (“I feel with the bad ending...”)? Imagine the car in your head, and silently go to another company making cars that drive. Sure, the financial cost of a game is much less than a car, but people also put their emotions, their feelings, their soul into a game.

But it's really nice in general. Thanks for a great example of a representative of fandom!

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

starryophonic#94327329/05/24 12:32 PM

The title says 'The romance with Astarion ' , not 'romance with ascended Astarion '.
This is a discussion board for everyone. I agree, that I would not go to the AA fangirl group on Reddit and start the discussion there, because that group was made with the specific intention to fangirl over that character. This is a message board for all aspects of the game. When I made my "I want a small race companion" thread, people came in there stating, they prefer sexy drow - as us their right. Here, you open a topic and people will view it from all sides. It's up for the mods to decide,what is ok and what not.
As I said in my answer to the other user: I'm not here to change views, I want a fruitful discussion. That used to be possible in message boards.
And there already is a big AA thread in Suggestions, so why not discuss Astarion as a whole here?

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

fylimar#94327529/05/24 12:48 PM

You're right. I'm sorry. I take that part back. It's early. I'm in a bad mood.

I *am* tired of people, not you, but other people, coming onto this and other discussions to just dunk on the ascended path as if we don't know it's the evil ending. As if we think Astarion is a good person. Over and over. "You know he's evil, right?"

"Okay!" *thumbs up*

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

starryophonic#94327829/05/24 01:15 PM

Hey ,all good. I don't have a problem with people wanting to play the evil path or the more morally grey one. I just want peaceful discussions, there is no right or wrong in playing an RPG, especially a single player. In a group you have to look, what everyone is happy with, but when you play yourself,you have the freedom to do whatever you want.
I for some reason like playing good in BG3. I do play evil characters in our table top, but I can't here.

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Marielle#94329229/05/24 06:44 PM

It's a pretty quick shot and the pause doesn't do much here, so you can interpret it in different ways, but no interpretation will make it better. On the contrary, I really liked the attack scene in the sewers because of how realistic it was. It clearly shows that Astarion is a vampire, and he wants to eat anyway. The Ascended, by the way, can eat regular food as well and doesn't feel hungry. It is clear, of course, that he will drink blood, but for him it will not be such a harsh and all-consuming necessity, desperately looking for a victim will certainly not have to.

Interesting! But he's selfish in a lot of ways - his remarks towards the other companions, especially when some misfortune happens to them, show that. He seems to care mostly about himself, and about Tav if Tav becomes a friend (in the romance he probably does too, I haven't romanced him, but I'm sure he will). Not only about Astarion in terms of the line after the bite scene that pissed me off at the time (he reacts pretty adequately to Ascension, by the way, compared to the tantrums of some of the other companions), but also in the video where Tav gives Shadowheart to Viconia - there's a very cold and indifferent attitude there in general. I'm not saying it's bad, he's quite logically looking out for his own well-being. And in general in BG3 companions don't really care about each other, there's no party unity, even at the end of the game, so he's not the only one, it's more like the whole game.

I never killed companions in the games, I always tried to avoid situations where they can attack me, I tried to somehow maneuver between “evil” and “good” in BG2, and in other games there were no such problems. The exception is Camellia in Pathfinder in the final part of her quest, that was too much even for me. In BG3, they're also dependent because of those maggots. True, Jaheira, Minsc and Halsin - no larvae, they stuck to me on their own, but I think if I go “evil”, they won't be in the story anyway, I won't have to kill anyone on purpose.

Ascended Astarion's thanks are much stronger and more sincere. “You gave me everything, thank you” is the most touching and poignant line in the game. So is his gratitude the next morning. And without the Ascension, he's just saying everything the “good hero” wants to hear. I don't know about SH, it's “officially” considered toxic, some people like her dark version, some don't. There's definitely nothing “toxic” about Astarion, except for patch 6. The kneeling darling scene is rails, Astarion thinks I like it, well let him think that, it can't be helped. I could somehow judge his “toxicity” if there was roleplay in the game, and I could give him a sincere and genuine response in that scene, just like saying a normal line before it, instead of, “I want your body”. Before assessing Astarion's behavior, it is worth looking at Tav through Astarion's eyes, from the outside. What does he see in front of him? A sex addict who enjoys degrading herself? Well, or Tav the submissive. For a submissive, a very good and loving dominant (again, let's exclude that artificially added victim facial expression). For Tavs who are not sabmissives - no idea, there is no such roleplay in the game. But even in the absence of this roleplay, Astarion's behavior is very loving, playful, and he is very much attached to Tav. Until patch 6, I enjoyed interacting with him, how proud and content he became, literally blossomed before my eyes. It's a wonderful feeling when a loved one opens up in a relationship with you.

Astarion Act 1.

Astarion act 2.

Astarion act 3.

I see him being himself, and not a gram of “toxicity”!

I've seen a few videos of the “good ending”. The scene at the docks (different videos with all companions' lines) + the dialog after. About the condescension - Tav's lines (don't know if Tav or DU was in the video). But that could be my opinion based on nuances - including Tav's facial expressions and gestures, if you're not too picky about such nuances, there could certainly be a different perception.

Astarion is free of Cazador without the ritual. That's it. Ascended is free from Cazador + many other things, I won't repeat myself.

Excuse me, but why do you like to use the word “bitch” so much? You can say “contract worker”, “tied to the devil”, there are many other words besides profanity that you can use. I admit that I don't like Jahaira, but I'm not saying that “that old bitch is really pissing me and Astarion off”.

I don't know what there is to be scared of, but the degree of scariness is certainly different for everyone. Of course, there's no reason to play it if it makes you scared and uncomfortable. His body language is fine, I really like his body language. He holds himself more confidently and doesn't move all his body like he used to (only when coaxing Tav, but not afterward). The posture is aristocratic, proud. Shrugs very nicely when he says, “Yes, my treasure!”. The state of the spawn? Yes I fight every day, all the time some kind of danger, if I'm afraid of everything, I'd have to put on a diaper and not leave the room. And that's scary, the Brain will take over and everyone will die. The scariest thing is death, it can always happen, including suddenly. If all the time think about it and fear everything, life will become a very sad thing.

Of course, everyone has their own headcanons, the game allows for different perceptions (well, until patch 6 it definitely did). I try to always make conclusions based on logic and analysis, not “authorities” and “rules”. Well and emotions, of course, empathy in such a game, when the character is like a live one, also works well. But I'm not going to impose anything on anyone, let everyone perceive it the way they prefer.

Interesting. On the contrary, I don't want to play “good” in BG3. In other games, mostly liked to go the “good” way, but not strictly following the “letter”, of course, some moments, according to the situation, maybe decided and “evil”, but in general always wanted to make the world better, after all, creation is more pleasant than destruction. BG3 is a specific exception, here I just want to play evil, good in many moments just disgusts me. But it's also hard to play evil, if you drive yourself into this framework, there will probably be a lot of extremely repulsive moments. One way or another, I get a kind of chaotic mess. But my favorite alignment is chaotic, so I guess it'll do. At the table in DnD, a lot depends on the DM. Say, with a very kind DM whose world I rest my soul in, I absolutely hate to spoil it for him and try to create an evil character. With a harsh fan of DnD realism, at which you can easily die, and which does not make any “discounts on morality”, and a good deed will not always lead to good consequences, you need to play carefully and calculate your actions, NE alignment in this case becomes a suitable choice.

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Marielle#94329329/05/24 07:07 PM

I want to point out that you can specifically ask Astarion if he's bound to Mephistopheles, and he says no. So he's not Mephistopheles' anything. His exact words are, "Mephistopheles has made a new monster, not bound a creature to his will. The rite was honored. The sacrifice is over."

We can certainly debate about the evilness of the ritual, but the game makes it pretty clear that the deal was, "You give me 7k souls, I give you some cool powers." It's a transaction, not an employment contract. He's not bound to do anything for Mephistopheles, now or in the afterlife, in the game's stated canon. DnD canon doesn't always apply to BG3; if there's a contradiction in the game, as far as I'm concerned, my default is to trust the game.

And I agree with Marielle. This is a world where survival is never guaranteed. The more limitations you have on where you can go, what you can do, the less free you are fundamentally. Whether you're willing to screw people over to get more freedom, that's something only the individual can decide. But I don't hold it against Astarion that he rightly recognizes a tadpole-less life as a spawn has limitations that are challenging to overcome, and that he's not willing to become a better person just to deal with them. I've played the AA route the whole way through, and I see absolutely no hint that Astarion isn't free from Cazador. He seems nothing like him to me. The only "hints" are when Tav can say, "You're just like Cazador now," but I struggle to think of any examples that prove this, and honestly, I hear the refrain, "He's just like Cazador" on Insta and YT comments CONSTANTLY, and have yet to see any concrete examples that, as I've said before, boil down to just "vibes."

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Marielle#94329529/05/24 07:32 PM

In Gale's defense, he has dialog when Astarion bit you and everyone found out he was a vampire.
You can ask him how he feels about having a vampire living in the camp. And Gale will answer that everyone has their own burdens. No judgment.
Gale and, I think, Halsin are the only ones reacting appropriately to the Ascension. That's it, the rest of us are whining.
He does make an offensive joke over the burning Spavn, though. Minsk too, but whether from stupidity or not, not so offensive. Promises to give him sunflowers. Replicas of the others I don't know, it was painful to watch it every time.

But it's like with Durge. If you kill Isobel (and consequently the whole tavern, (She accidentally in valor died before Marcus. Dammon-Blacksmith was the only one I felt sorry for.)) in Act 2. Only Astarion won't give you his say "ew". The rest will read morality.
I like the Astarion-Durge interaction better than Astarion-Tav, since there's more interaction and individual lines with Durge. And Astarion sees him as a kindred spirit (that's even if Durge completely resists all temptations rather than murder everyone left and right).
Other than that, I agree with you on everything else, Marielle.)

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

Marielle#94329629/05/24 07:59 PM

Marielle &starryophinic

About the deal with Mephisto: apart from Astarions word , there is no evidence to either, but I would be very afraid at that point to deal with a devil. I used Mephistos bitch as a in-game reference - somewhere ( probably Karlach or Wyll) said that in reference to Cazadors deal with Mephisto in a specific dialogue or ambient dialogue.
By game logic I would not trust the ascention coming without ties. The game shows you the whole time, how bad devil deals are and that the other party always looses, so I'm paranoid.

Marielle: I found spawn Astarions thanks pretty sincere. And yes, AA makes me very uncomfortable. If I would ever try that rout, then never romanced. I simply don't cherish the thought of being tied to someone, I just met a few month ago, and who himself warned me how dependent a spawn is to their master, without the means to leave if things get south. I prefer to play independent, adventurous characters and I can't see a reason,why any of them would do that.
But that is my approach. As I said, to everyone their own reasoning and headcanons. We will never know, if the ascention dooms Astarion to become a debtor in Cania after death or if there is a happily ever after for spawn pc and AA, despite the obvious power gap. My problem is btw not with the BDSM undertones, but in BDSM you can say No and walk away,which is harder, if you are bound to your Dom. Then you can only hope that they are well meaning. And I guess, that is, where everyone has their personal headcanons about what might happen.

Re: The romance with Astarion pulls you over to the "dark side".

fylimar#94329729/05/24 08:18 PM

I just don't personally love the idea of assuming a character is lying or incorrect unless there's some evidence for it. If you can tell me Karlach or Wyll's actual comments regarding Mephistopheles, I'd certainly like to read that, but IMO, once you assume a character is lying about one thing, it becomes much easier to justify any headcanon. Furthermore, we hear a lot, "Ascended Astarion is lying about X or Y," but Unascended Astarion is always assumed to be telling the truth. Astarion is a known manipulator. Yes, he does sometimes lie, or hide or stretch the truth, but there's always a reason for it and his lies are generally exposed. Unascended, he tells the player he's glad he didn't do the ritual, but if they break up with him, that will be revealed to be a lie. After Astarion mentions the deal with Mephistopheles, it never comes up again, so to me, it doesn't make sense that he's lying and if that somehow was the writers' intention, I think it was poorly executed.

I guess what I'm saying is, I feel there are plenty of reasons not to help him ascend that are supported by the text and canon in the actual game, so arguments based on, "he's probably lying" feel flimsy to me.